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Post by Landcaster on Jul 23, 2020 8:26:45 GMT -4
I have never used the aerospace units on regular 17x16 maps as my regular group and I have never had a big enough event to really support it. Most games have taken place on 2x2 standard map areas. I started poking at megamek using a fighters in a game against a mech. I'll check the rules later after I get some stuff done, but wondered if people had some tips.
The issue that I was having was figuring out how much I should accelerate, the turn radius, and maneuvers to try and increase my ability to fly over the target mech. I was just running the mech around and ended up blasting a stuka out of the sky with ease, and my Visigoth took a trip into a hillside. I would hate to lose that much bv without having a real chance of doing anything with it.
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Post by keeperkomando on Jul 25, 2020 9:34:16 GMT -4
Fighters in general are a whole other ball game. Very different game mechanics especially on the space side of things. It can take a lot of planning ahead, and maths.
I usually click where I want to go before I accelerate, and see how many hexes the game thinks it takes to get there. Then I esc to cancel the move, accelerate, and see if the turn radius' change if can get there or not.
The big trick in attacking ground units is to do the math to see how much velocity you need to be going in order for your target to not shoot you down immediately. Usually four or five velocity is the minimum speed to get those modifiers up to 11, 12 or higher. It is easier to be shot at than for you to do a strafing run as you can only hit targets along your flight path but anyone nearby your route can target you in return. Acceleration of only 1 or 2 can let you easily kill a target, but might leave you out of control the next round. Aerospace units have a lot of armor protection, but control checks are really what kill them or damage threshold on the internal structure.
The other thing is to know the altitudes and how they translate into range. I usually stay at altitude five and strike at ground targets to be as safe as possible from accidental crashes. Flying at Altitude 1, Nap-Of-The-Earth, you do get an extra modifier, but then the target can open up with all their short range weapons and maybe get a lucky hit that's enough to force your light fighter into a control roll, which if it fails at Altitude 1 you're definitely going to hit the ground. Knowing how much damage you can take before having to make a control roll is important, too. As is not overheating more than 1-2 extra points.
Once you start to get a handle on that, the real fun is swinging around to their rear and blazing away at an assault Mech's rear armor. Flying AC-20's, Gauss and Clan ERPPC is nasty.
But I'm still learning, too, so if there's any other advice, I'd be happy to hear it
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Post by Tardigrades on Jul 29, 2020 22:37:01 GMT -4
I know that at one or two acceleration velocity it takes 8 hexes in one direction before you can turn. Three or four acceleration velocity I think is 12 and 16 hexes respective.
There are special moves too, but those need control rolls to make. Some of them add velocity when you perform them, and other need velocity before you can make those moves. I think hammerhead is the most useful as it allows you to do a full 180 degrees and fly back the way you came. There is also a sort of side slip move that allows you to move almost like a "knight" or "horse" in classic chess, just a much larger "L" shape (I forget how many hexes down and over).
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Post by mausgmr on Aug 2, 2020 16:16:35 GMT -4
Am I right in thinking, and my experience thus far, that Aerospace have only a 1 hex view range around themselves for ground targets? I've read some guides online that suggest they can see everything, but with numerous tests I can only spot ground units if I luckily fly over them, if I have only aero on the map.
Curious to find out if this is what we should be expecting, and if i'm missing something?
I tried a unit with satellite look down radars etc, no luck.
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Post by Admin on Aug 2, 2020 22:08:41 GMT -4
mausgmr I like to think of it as this: Aerospace and Conventional fighters can visually see a very large area (like an entire 100x100 map, unless weather conditions or time of day becomes more of a factor. Having one present will reveal most units in such an area unless they are underwater, line of sight is blocked by a large tall building, they are infantry/battle armor or other very small units "hidden" in woods or other similar hexes (sometimes "hull down") or if they are "shutdown" is certain locations (no radar signals to detect them). As for being able to "see" to target, ground based units can only be fired on by aerospace or conventional fighters if any only if they pass directly over them during their line of movement. This includes making special attacks such as "strafing attacks/runs" or "bombing" compared to just regular attacks with forward mounted weapons (including on wings). Just radars as "satellite look down" are sort of more for fluff purposes and don't have much effect in MegaMek as yet compared to regular sensors. That said such "plane" units can only attack ground targets at an altitude of FIVE (5), FOUR (4), THREE (3) or TWO (2), above 5 is too high, and since you loose an altitude to make an attack, an attack at elevation ONE (1) will have you crash into the ground. I am seriously hoping to get some of my already started tutorial videos up and running this week. For anyone doing a battle with air units, please practice with them before your fight a little. This first week of "battles with bandits" is a way to figure out MegaMek and fighting before you start facing real "hyoo-monns," as Quark would say.
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Post by mausgmr on Aug 3, 2020 0:33:10 GMT -4
Thanks for the post Kris. However with testing in mega mek I can confirm with current game rules Aerospace only have a map Los of one hex for ground targets, this that can't see anything.
Is there an option that's causing this? Something to investigate I feel.
Edit 21:20
I've been testing it so far and the only way I can see to make aerospace not have a LOS value of 1 or 2 hexes is by taking Tacops double blind out of the game options.
After reviewing the Tacops manual, I found the following entry under double blind rules spotting phase page 189.
"Airborne Units: Against other airborne units, use the
Visible Range Table as usual. However, against ground units,
an airborne unit is only able to visually detect units along its
flight path and must be at or below Altitude 8."
How do you want to handle this Kris?
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fevir
New Member
Posts: 13
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Post by fevir on Aug 4, 2020 11:49:00 GMT -4
What are the StratOps Advanced Sensor Rules for aerospace? SO pg 117 anyone? I don't have a book handy. Maybe that helps? I notice that option isn't turned on in our settings.
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Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2020 11:58:35 GMT -4
I am looking into this, it may mean that for certain battles "Double Blind" would have to be turned off. Namely if one party has flying units present. However that would give the other party without air power visual data they shouldn't have...
fevir I will look into the StratOps Advanced Sensor Rules when I am home and have access to my library.
I do note with the slightly outdated MegaMek version I carry with me on a USB that there is a "(Unofficial) Sensors reveal all unit information." option under the "Advanced Rules" tab that might be worth exploring as well.
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 10, 2020 13:53:12 GMT -4
Did we get a final opinion on this aspect. It will very much affect how I handle this week's match.
*Edit*
After running a test game using just conventional fighters with the stratops aerospace sensors working enemy targets are pinged quite easily using the sensors. They appear "greyed out" but that's because you don't have LOS on them specifically, but your sensors pick up a information quite well.
**Edit to the Edit**
I have not been able to repeat this using the proper steps so I assume I must have clicked something wrong.
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Post by Admin on Aug 10, 2020 21:49:10 GMT -4
Let's go with the "StratOps Advanced Sensor Rules" turned on. I would prefer to maintain the Double Blind as much as possible as I feel that is a core component of the campaign. As long as you get a sensor feed that something is out there, that is better than nothing.
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 10, 2020 23:20:39 GMT -4
Running game through mekhq has had different results. air to ground sensor range is 0-3. IDK how I was able to see units in the megamek test game I was running. I was positive that all my settings were the same...
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Post by mausgmr on Aug 11, 2020 1:09:05 GMT -4
I also tested with strat ops advanced sensors on and it didn't work.
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 11, 2020 12:45:48 GMT -4
It's not impossible. Ran some practice matches with the rules. You just gotta do a lot of fly overs until you find 'em then hope and pray.
I'm sure I'll just attach a Ferret to my air units in order to act as a spotter for them.
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Post by mausgmr on Aug 11, 2020 16:11:35 GMT -4
Are you saying that it's not impossible because units show up when you fly over them, or because you've found a rule set that makes things more feasible?
Personally, I don't think it's acceptable to spend what could be hours, trying to just accidentally fly over a target so that you can shoot it once. Aerospace should be able to see ground targets, after all the pacific fight in ww2 was won by aircraft spotting and engaging water based targets.
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 11, 2020 16:21:39 GMT -4
Are you saying that it's not impossible because units show up when you fly over them, or because you've found a rule set that makes things more feasible? Definitely in reference to flying over for hours. I have no idea how I did it the first test I ran. I had visual on all enemies but they were greyed, when my craft flew off the map I no longer had visual with my ground units. I tried to see if maybe I just had double blind off but that was certainly not the case because now they're not greyed.
My dumbass had princess set to the same team as me on my first test game... I'm just extremely confused because it clearly says in TacOps visual range daylight of an aerospace fighter is 120. Sensor ranges for airborne units do not change, though LOS exists to all units on the playing area. Proposed Solutions:1: An annoying choice but to turn double blind off with aerospace assets. Save the game after all aerospace assets have been destroyed. Open the zip save file quickly and turn double blind back on. Then reload the game. (Of course this assumes both parties have air assets. 2: A support VTOL (cruise 25) is constructed and distributed to all players for "add a combat unit" access. This vtol serves as the notional "eyes on" that aero units have. This unit is not a target during actual gameplay and will depart the map when all air units are gone. |
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 27, 2020 19:59:38 GMT -4
Can confirm that running VTOL with aerospace is a exceptional improvement
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Post by Admin on Aug 27, 2020 21:46:33 GMT -4
Ok, how about we just give everyone a very fast unarmed VTOL for all matches where you only have aerospace?
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Post by mausgmr on Aug 28, 2020 3:50:30 GMT -4
What's the fastest vtol we could get without having to pull something in from the mech lab?
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garyp
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by garyp on Aug 28, 2020 5:21:54 GMT -4
The C3 and artillery spotter versions of the Oculus (a Fan Council design) are the fastest VTOLs in the standard install, both capable of 25/38. If you want the maximum speed don't accidentally select the tactical spotter variant, that only has a move of 19/29.
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Post by Admin on Aug 28, 2020 7:50:17 GMT -4
Ideally we would just have it patrol around the edges of the map at as high an altitude as possible to spot the targets the aircraft should be seeing, but not be involved in the fighting. Honestly keeping it close to the boarders would be best since we don't want the AI to shoot at it. We might want to make a custom design, just so we can give it VTOL boosters and as much armor as possible along with the speed.
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garyp
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by garyp on Aug 28, 2020 8:34:36 GMT -4
I was toying with this idea, the fastest VTOL design I could come up with, to try to stay in the same map hex as the fighter it is providing vision for. It can easily keep up with a fighter moving at velocity 3 and keep close with velocity 4. For aero units moving at higher velocities the VTOL's ability to stay in the same hex depends on the turns and aerobatic maneuvers made by the fighter, the VTOL can potentially cut inside the turn of fighter and move to the same hex.
The armor is quite thin, but it was intended to move enough to produce a +7 to hit modifier every turn and to if necessary keep enough distance from bot controlled units that it would take a roll of 13 or more to hit.
Given the side slip penalty from the jet booster it would probably be best to give something like this a piloting skill of of zero, or possibly even negative. Heli-Scout
Base Tech Level: Experimental (IS)
Weight: 3 tons
BV: 22
Cost: 74,398 C-bills
Movement: 28/42(56) (VTOL)
Engine: 0 Fusion
BAR Rating : 3
Internal: 5
Armor: 7
Internal Armor
Front 1 2
Right 1 1
Left 1 1
Rear 1 1
Rotor 1 2
Equipment Loc
VTOL Jet Booster RR
SV Chassis Mod [Ultra-Light] BD
Another possibility does occur to me, since such a VTOL won't be "real" it doesn't need to conform to the design rules. A vehicle file could be manually modified to give a VTOL with a cruise speed of 200, ludicrous armour, stealth systems and an active probe to give a sensor radius that often further than its LOS radius. While the player(s) are in the lobby would need to select the allow invalid units check box to allow the illegal VTOL to be added to their forces.
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 28, 2020 11:04:53 GMT -4
Even so, throwing the oculus into combat usually isn't a problem, it's high speed guarantees to-hit rolls over 12 except maybe the shortest range bracket.
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Post by PiratePatrick on Aug 29, 2020 8:58:59 GMT -4
I would suggest having two per match just in case of an 'accident' such as side slipping off the map, but I am worried that the AI are going to spend shots on these and not the threats they are supposed to focus on?
Still I cannot find another solution other than turning off Double Blind, which in my mind, if we take it off for one scenario it should always be off.
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Post by catfishkailen on Aug 30, 2020 15:38:47 GMT -4
Well at the end of the day Princess doesn't work with double blind at all. So if you've got your aero assets against princess may as well just turn it off. Against players however, it's quite easy to establish this is not a combat unit. Please don't shoot it.
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